Israel and anti-Semitism, decision time
A fair number of his contributions amount to, in the words of the moderator, "your country, form of government and people are despicable. I know it's true because I say so. There is no discussion about it."
For the record, though I've had pleasant enough discussions with the gentleman, I think that's a fair assessment. We got much the same from his Canadian daughter, who contributed also that Canadians are "more kind" than Americans.
How sad. There was a time when Canadians might boast they were tougher than Americans.
I am quoting without attribution, because I don't have permission. Some of you know that doesn't always stop me.* But in fact I rather like the gentleman, and he's old and alone.
"Earlier history is irrelevant. One need go no further than the Ottoman Empire becoming our enemy on aligning itself with the German Confederation in WW1. Then, as in WW2, the Germans sought, with Turkish help, to take the Suez Canal - towards which their railroad project was already within 400 miles.
We British ejected the Turks in 1917 from what became Palestine, mediating and keeping the peace between Arab and Jew for 31 years.
The Holocaust was of course a prime motivator towards the establishment of a Jewish state. The UN had neither mandate nor authority to recognise the state of Israel - but it had the votes of the western world, led by America, for an ultra vires resolution.. (A recent count showed GW Bush Administration contained at least 43 Jews in senior appointments (on merit?), including 8 ambassadors - Muslims NIL - perhaps little proportionate change since 1948). One needs also to consider the massive Jewish influence, then as now, from Wall Street to LA, particularly in finance and media - despite comprising only about 1.4% of US population. US Administrations cannot ignore that influence to which it is 'in hock', let alone bring it to heel.
Against such pressure there was no chance of the UN insisting upon a secular state of Israel. So non-adherents to Judaism effectively became non-citizens - Palestinians not only dispossessed but made pariahs in their own land. Israelis now claim 'God given authority'. What of Allah?
So what if Israelis boast about "settling in a barren land neglected by its shiftless inhabitants, making it a vital country and making the desert bloom".
That 'get up and go' appeals to Americans but is no justification for stealing the land. None of you would take kindly to foreigners 'invading and 'improving' your back-yard !' You may despise Palestinians for their grubby track suits, night-shirt style garments, and apparent indolence but that is their prerogative, making them no less human beings with equal rights. - and accords no entitlement to colonize and partition their land. Would you not fire rockets in defiance, lacking the means of proper defence against modern weaponry, much provided by benevolent Uncle Sam.
One must presume the UN did not consider the impact on resident Palestinians already in situ - trusting the Jews to treat them fairly !. It has been argued that Palestinians refused to negotiate. I would not negotiate with invaders over my real estate, particularly in the face of force majeure.. Of course inevitably 9/11 enters the equation. Palestinians are mostly Moslem as were the 9/11 perpetrators - there must be a connection?.
One senses an intention to draw a parallel -- Redskin has accepted Paleface, so why does not Palestinian yield to Jew? Why the hell should he? He is the ultimate loser, and doubtless recognises that. In other places we would applaud the heroism of fighting to the end against insurmountable odds. And we have seen the ruthlessness of Israeli forces, including use of white phosphorus weapons against civilians, obliteration of UN HQ and stores, point blank shooting of children. Israeli /Nazi. What's the difference? Bush openly declared for the Israeli government (having no option) - and I had thought Americans fair minded. They now just want the case 'wrapped up' - regardless of humanity. The US should first put its own house in order. Obviously the US considers its sheer might adequate cover for their blind ignorance of other nations and races - vitally necessary before assuming a mantle of world leadership - as claimed yesterday.
At least the Koran forbids usury - which has brought western civilisation(?) to the brink.
Well intentioned Yanks have caused more harm than good in many parts of the world. Get your act together."
In a follow-up discussion he claimed:
"Yanks now seem to have a fixation that all Muslims are wicked. Are all Christians, Hindus and Jews saints? There is no trace of anti-semitism; only fierce criticism of wicked deeds. Of course I could have taken a pragmatic view 'Palestinians were always destined to be losers'. Perhaps you think they should now quit. But my view is supported by the Law Faculty at Cambridge University walking out - so I have some brains on my side - should you doubt mine!"
I'm sorry, I know the claim that "anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism," and I've made it myself. But if you look at the above, it just doesn't wash.
To wit, conspiracy thinking and:
"(A recent count showed GW Bush Administration contained at least 43 Jews in senior appointments (on merit?), including 8 ambassadors - Muslims NIL - perhaps little proportionate change since 1948)."
A count of Nobel Prize winners would show a hundred-plus Jews, and Muslims amounting to a number I could count to without taking my shoes off.
Not from the freaking Nobel Prize Committee, I assure you.
And, I've been encountering this kind of attitude from English and other Europeans for a while now.
One English correspondent claimed the Israeli's were "as bad as" Islamists, (actually, I believe he said "Jews" - he didn't make the distinction between Jews and Zionists.) To this end he forwarded articles on 1) a bunch of idiot frat boys who turned out to be Jewish, who'd gotten caught burning down a church somewhere down south, and, 2) some Hasids in Israel who'd beaten up some tourists on a bus.
For 1) he had to search the KKK/neo-fascist sites to find particular mention that, gasp!, some criminals are Jewish.
I could have pointed him here: http://www.amazon.com/Tough-Jews-Fathers-Gangster-Dreams/dp/0375705473/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232901968&sr=8-1
to the book "Tough Jews," a history which shows that the so-called Mafia in America is also largely a creation of Jewish gangsters.
By a Jewish author, by the way.
Lo and behold, the Jewish minority has a criminal class. Show me a group without one please.
For 2) he found that Jews also have nutty cults that behave obnoxiously. In fact, I have it on good authority that Chasids are widely disliked - in Israel, by Israelis. Who nonetheless tolerate them, because that's what free people do.
I could point out that Chasids are a small minority, compared to say, the number of Wahabbis within Islam. And Wahabbis, to the best of my knowledge, have never produced any literature as inspiring and uplifting as the tales of the Baal Shem Tov.
Bottom line: If Israel decisively wins yet another war, what's going to happen?
If Israel decisively loses for the first time, what's going to happen?
Does anyone have any doubt there won't be any Israelis left, beyond those that might be saved by emergency evacuation to America?
So, because it's time to take a stand, my view:
There's actually a fair amount I agree with in the gentleman's post - I just reach different conclusions.
The justifications offered for the right of European Jews to colonize the area of ancient Israel strike me as very thin indeed. An absence of 2,000 years is not like stepping out for a beer and returning to find squatters in your home.** And who did give the UN the right to dispose of other people's territory?
A startlingly sensible suggestion was made to FDR by the late King Saud of Saudi Arabia, "Give them the lands and possessions of the Germans who oppressed them."
(Is it too late for that one?)
I supported these points back when it was dangerously unpopular to do so. I haven't changed my mind, now that anti-Semitism is again popular on the Left.
It's just that now I don't give a damn.
When it comes down to the crunch, you've got to choose between people who: practice chattel slavery, treat women like chattel, have no concept of the rights of man whatsoever (and it's rather odd that the gentleman is claiming "rights" for a people who recognize none), and demand that when a woman is raped (or just seen in a compromising position with an unrelated man) her husband, father, mother, brother or son must murder - her.
Versus: a people whose law released John Demjanjuk (accused of being a concentration camp guard "Ivan the Terrible") because the evidence didn't rise to the bar of proof demanded by their law.
That choice was not forced on us by the Israelis, but by the Islamists, so screw 'em.
And you can't blame their behavior solely on the Israelis. It doesn't explain the barbarous behavior of the Islamists in Algeria to their fellow-Algerians.
Remember that forgotten conflict?
That's where the Islamists invaded school rooms and cut the throats of little girls who weren't wearing head scarves.
That's where the Islamists cut off the heads of vile people who for example, read books, and arrange them artisticly on staircases.
Nor for that matter, does it explain the easy-going Tunisians. They've got a police state, but a rather nice one, with a wine and spirits industry and an attitude of, "Have fun and make money. Just don't forget who's in charge."
Their contributions to the ranks of terrorists are minimal. Evidently, they could care less about Israel. And I've had it on good authority many of them don't like to make the Hajj, "because of those damn fanatics."
To put it bluntly, 5 million obnoxious Jews are worth more to me than 500 million obsequious Arabs who'll kiss a Brits backside the way they love so well.
And I want them to know that.
* I recently excised the name and contact data of a lady who asked me nicely. Among other reasons, it was pointed out to me that true Bulgarians and other victims of communism, rather forcefully resent apologists for communism coming from their kind and tend to consider them traitors and collaborators, with all that implies.
** See here: http://www.ilanamercer.com/phprunner/public_article_list_view.php?editid1=316
a piece I give as an example of possibly the worst piece of reasoning that reaches a conclusion I support.